I’ve been asked to take the time to think through and summarize my findings on Life Church. My thesis is, while the theology is harmless at Life Church, the way Life Church is organized and operated is tightly controlled from the top down. Nothing and no one is permitted to depart from Craig’s personal organizational script. The only membership participation allowed is carefully and tightly controlled. The instant anyone feels called and led by the Spirit to do things just a little differently, they are marginalized, at best. If the Spirit of God moves in your heart to do something not listed, you will have to leave Life Church to do it. Shallowness is not the problem, it’s that shallowness is enforced. Further discussion here. Comments are closed. Look around here on the blog; there are other ways to contact me.
Craig Groeschel is an entrepreneur. His primary business is entertainment. He’s also an accomplished actor. LifeChurch.tv is an ongoing drama with lots of noise, action, and some religion thrown in for good measure. Most people think it’s a church, but it’s simply a multimedia entertainment empire.
According to some who were involved at the start of this business, Craig admitted he chose the Evangelical Covenant Church solely because they had the lowest requirements for ordination. It’s not as if what he offers is bad religion. In terms of doctrine and Scripture, his material is fairly orthodox. He actually talks about sin and the need for redemption in the Blood of Jesus. But those things are simply not the real point of his work.
This is all so Craig can fulfill his personal dreams, and do what he likes, and get paid a lot for it. A driven man, he works hard, but like any modern CEO, actually serving the customer is the last thing on his mind. That is, real spiritual needs never enter into the picture. He comes close in some ways, and close enough for a lot of folks to be satisfied enough to keep coming back. In an industry where full satisfaction is actually quite rare in the first place, he’s found that sweet spot of client tolerance and people come by the thousands. They come because it’s still better than many of the alternatives.
Like any network, Craig’s product rolls downhill from him. What he does not want to provide directly, he contracts with others who specialize in certain forms of religious entertainment. I’m pretty sure there some kind of reciprocity in there. However, each is carefully selected for entertainment value first. A critical element in the audience draw is the appearance of faith challenge. For the majority, there is a bit of challenge, just enough to sound like that mortification and sacrifice we all instinctively know is a trait of genuine faith in Christ. It’s just a taste, just a little bit more demanding than “three dollars worth of the gospel.”
This is nothing more than the standard threshold programming we see in any part of the entertainment industry. What puts butts in the seats and dollars in the bucket? What keeps them coming back? Don’t go too far, because there has to be room to top it later. Of course, anything can be repackaged for reuse later, once it has been somewhat forgotten. It always sounds edgy and current, but it’s really carefully controlled to prevent it getting out of Craig’s firm control.
This is where it comes off sinister. I have personally observed people planted into each group by the staff at events, plants whose only mission is to keep an eye on what happens, to prevent small groups from departing the script. If they can steer things back onto the script, they will. If the person leading things is too strong, they’ll report that to the staff and the strong leader will be gently contacted. Depending on how strong they are, the staff may simply explain what’s expected in the most positive terms, perhaps sidelined from leading, moved to another group arrangement, etc. If all else fails, the strong leader will be told to withdraw and not remain involved. Because real Christian leaders know when they are being firmly excluded, I doubt anyone is actually escorted out the door. I’m sure they would do that, though, because they keep highly paid off-duty law enforcement officers on hand.
But the fundamental rule of all activities is to prevent anyone probing real spiritual need deeper than whatever is officially declared “deep enough.” Only carefully selected teachers are permitted to lead a Bible study. Anything officially supported by the corporation must be fully controlled. Every time someone makes noise about any kind of special need, the central network hands down a curriculum. It’s use is required, but the requirement sounds like a gentle sales pitch. For example, to prevent anyone starting to hunger and thirst for genuine holiness, Craig’s “Chazown” is heavily promoted. Granted, it does cover the basics rather well, and can keep most people busy for several sessions. You will never, ever see the corporation support a genuine exploration into any faith issue not already covered by the available materials.
Craig is constantly pumping out more books himself, all of which follows the same formula of demanding just enough, without going beyond that invisible line any good theologian could discern. The dirty secret of Christian publishing is most of the big names are operating in exactly the same mold as Craig. It’s a critical part of the entertainment industry, but targeted at a very large specialized market.
It would be impossible to determine easily whether the planted spies and even staff members are true believers or operating from the level of cynicism I describe here. The business of compromise by avoiding looking too deep into the mirror, a good moral desire to really believe in something which seems to work, is more than even a good psychiatrist should want to investigate. There is a concerted effort to substitute enthusiasm and familiar assumptions about holiness for the genuine power of the Holy Spirit. Even the common popular expressions of Neo-Pentecostal religion is somewhat suppressed, though the sermons always include just a pinch of “name-it-and-claim-it” spiritualized materialism.
In the end, I am inclined to think Craig Groeschel is at least partly cynical in all this, though hardly sinister. However, it’s not unfair to call him a deceiver, a manipulator, and some even go so far as to say a liar. He tells a utilitarian grade of truth to the audience, and says something different inside his office. So much has been confirmed by former insiders, which makes him just like a lot of other famous pastors I’ve known. I’m sure he realizes he is filling a void and doing just enough good he need not fear complete failure. I can’t pretend to guess what his conscience says, but I suspect it’s pretty badly damaged in the first place, as it is with most Westerners. It does no good to blame Craig for what he is doing. It’s enough to simply label the whole thing a decent gateway, but not a source of genuine spiritual nourishment.
Instead of genuine spiritual growth, there is a very admirable amount of worldly good. That is, the real focus of service is all the things which make for marvelous PR, and they really mean it. They work with local municipal code enforcement to identify people needing help fixing up their homes and yards, sustain quite a few recovery type programs, and even work with the state to engage the foster children program, along with a lot of other innovative charity work. Perhaps their crown jewel is heavy investment in third world development programs which tend to actually work.
But for LifeChurch.tv to work at all, it cannot meet genuine spiritual need beyond the most basic stuff almost every human needs. You’ll get the $20 gospel instead of the $3 version, but you still won’t get anything calling for a full commitment of yourself to genuine holiness.
It’s unanimous; everyone who has left says truly following Christ means you’ll eventually have to follow Him out of Life Church.
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Not really sure where you get your information. Sounds like you must attend a church that is not growing and as a result you feel the need to attack one that is. Love it that you have “insiders” who have left Lifechurch.tv but you can’t name names. An attack like that carries no weight if you can’t identify your source for all to know just how “inside” this person was. Someone sent me your obscure blog yesterday and asked me to make a comment on it. She is one of those “sheep” that you referred to in another one of your misguided rants. Making the sheep nervous…that will sit well with our Father. “Plants in the audience”…Get Real!
I know of a two former Lifechurch.tv Pastors, one is now Pastoring a church in West Palm Beach that has nothing but high marks for Lifechurch.tv and Craig Groeschel, and the other has an online ministry. Both of these Pastors were “let go” from their Campus Pastor positions. Even if they were actually miffed at Lifechurch.tv, and I’m not saying they are, what good would it do the Kingdom by slamming a church that is now one of the largest churches in the US. That could be what has rubbed you wrong. The fact that Lifechurch.tv has grown to that size in less than 10 years, while most churches in the US are under 500. What church do you Pastor, or where do you attend? I looked for information on you online and could find anything about you, other than this blog site. I guess I could write what I heard from a person that attended the same church you do…That’s right, we all have our “insiders.”That source said that you are consumed with writing these blogs and that it is having a negative affect on you and your family. It also said that you crave attention and love drawing attention to yourself, in hopes that it raises awareness to your blogs…You know, I don’t know how you write that stuff, it made me shiver just spreading that kind of falsehood in jest. I can’t imagine how you live with yourself. An “insider” told you that…you have some growing to do in your faith. Do you know that non-believers love to see believers attacking each other. DC TALK once said in a song that “Christianity is the number one reason for atheism in the world today. People who confess Christ with their mouth, yet deny Him by their actions.” Can I ask you this? Before you took the time to write the article, did you perform any due diligence on your source, your “insider?”
I am not an employee of Lifechurch.tv, but I am a church planter that loves what Lifechurch.tv is doing to grow the Kingdom and what God is doing to add to their numbers daily. I have listened to many of Craig’s messages and find them as relevant and as scriptural as any messages I have heard. I am a 58 year old, former elder (15 years) and I love the thought of a local campus where the “shepherds” and Pastors/staff of that campus do not have to worry about paying the bills, what color the carpet is, when to paint the building, or the building fund, etc. All they have to do is “tend to the flock.” How cool is that?
Frank, everyone has a right to be wrong. I publish your rant next to mine because I figure readers can sort it for themselves. How do I sleep? Very soundly, because you missed the entire point of what I wrote, and clearly haven’t bothered to read much else here on this blog. You miss my entire approach, taking potshots at a nonexistent target. We call that the Straw Man.
Let’s reduce the unnecessary verbiage immediately: Size and growth means nothing in the Spirit Realm. “Where two or three are gathered in my Name…” One could make the case size and growth correlate more with spiritual emptiness in our society than with spiritual growth, so don’t go there. Stick the with substance of my rant: It is spiritually shallow, and intentionally structured to stay that way.
On one point I charge you with intellectual dishonesty: my comment about spies. You merged that with insider reports; I did not. Let me try one more time to keep them where I placed them originally. I engaged the small group meetings, seeking to prove myself fit to serve in leadership. At every step of the way I played by the rules as they were presented to me. Those rules changed at every step of the way, but I didn’t bother to raise that previously. At the crucial point where I actually first exercised that leadership, at the very last moment one member was added to my group. This person acted item by item according to well known techniques for hijacking a group. Deny as much as you like, but I’ve spent years working in situations where the likes of the Delphi Technique have been used, and I recognize it easily.
As for insider reports, that’s easy to find on the Net. Lots of folks who left Life Church have posted comments if you want to search for them, same as I did. Plus there are a dozen or so members of the same campus who left at the same time I did for the same reason. Name names? I’m not stupid enough to face tort liabilities. You underestimate my level of experience and expertise in Church Administration, Organizational Theory, general human political behavior, and everything that goes with it. For my part, I’m not attacking your expertise or background, nor you as a person. I’m answering your comment directly.
Feel free to call me crazy and paranoid, because this is not about proving anything in a court of law. I wrote in the spirit of Ezekiel 33, and churches using the Delphi Technique do so because they reject the power of God. You’ll notice I did not say it was all evil, that no one was finding Christ, or anything else like that. I even gave them credit for good works. What I wrote was composed to appeal to those whose spirits have been awakened, and they have pursued that beyond the level of mere self-help psychology. That cannot be found at Life Church. You are addressing things from a very carnal perspective, whereas my post aims at spiritual issues. Your comment is precisely the sort of thing I disparage. The whole thing reeks of worldly accommodation with man’s way of doing things, not the spiritual. My charge is these activities are not what God is doing, and I’ve written voluminously on the subject of how God is not in numbers because narrow and difficult is the path to righteousness, and broad the one running off into Hell.
So I am not at all in competition with whatever it is you represent. I lead a house church; it makes not a bit of difference how many show up or don’t. It’s not a psychological event as with worship at Life Church; it’s a spiritual event. Even casual visitors to this blog notice how I apply to myself the label “Christian Mystic” — does that mean nothing to you, sir? Please post a comment in which you are not talking past me. Address how everything I saw at Life Church is designed to prevent depth, to distract from it. Attack what I actually said.
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I cannot comment on the particular ministry that is being discussed here as I have no knowledge of it. However I think it raises some valuable points about how we measure success in church and the question is posed; is man’s view of success anything like the Lord’s? The size of a church is not what pleases the Lord but rather the hearts of those in it. I am really coming round to the idea that the best churches will become smaller as the world continues to invade our thinking.
Ed’s post made me think of a church I know in the UK where the pastor has no heart for his people and employs someone else to do his pastoral care. His teaching is very lightweight and rather jaded and he tends to keep anyone lively out of his pulpit. He encourages his most gifted people to leave by closing doors of service to them. He sees his role mainly of terms of keeping himself in a reasonably well paid job. I can only assume that people stay in this church because either they have not worked out that spiritually speaking it is going nowhere or worse that the church caters for them as people who like their pastor are lukewarm about their faith. He should read and teach the cost of discipleship by Deitrich Bonhoeffer. Our faith should cost us something!
Since you guys have had your rant, here is mine, what is all this titular authority in the body of Christ? ‘Senior pastor’ should really be ‘Junior under-shepherd’ . ‘Rev’ there is is only one ‘Reverend’ in the bible and that is God? How do our ‘Revs’ compare with Him? Special expensive offices, expense accounts and designated car parking tending to a culture of self agrandisement which is opposite to humility. What about servant leaders , who wash their flocks feet ? If we don’t serve the flock we have no mandate to lead them.
We need another reformation of the church in Scotland one in which the Church leaders repent and start serving the kingdom rather than their local interest. Many ministers and pastors wont support evangelism unless it is exclusively for their own church.
Rant over
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Apparently, Ed Hurst, you’ve never BEEN to LifeChurch. Why don’t you, at least, attend online services faithfully for a few months?
My name is Kitty Jordan and I am a theologically conservative Christian. I came to Christ in 1984, love him and seek to obey Biblical teaching. I was in a theologically conservative church in Kansas until I moved to Oklahoma in 1997 and began attending LifeChurch some time after that. I have attended services at seven campuses and have seen lives changed when people commit their lives to Jesus Christ.
I have NEVER heard Craig Groeschel say/teach anything that conflicts with truths I believe God, through the Bible, intends to convey. As Christian members of LifeChurch, we are called to obedience to the Word, service and personal sacrifice, and consistently taught about Biblical standards and the necessity of bringing our behaviors into conformance with the Word of God.
Craig Groeschel teaches people how to live the faith. Shame on you.
Shame on you, Kitty for the Straw Man Fallacy. You don’t address anything in my post. I attended a local Life Church campus for several months. I never suggest Craig was unorthodox, but that is organization is designed to prevent actual spiritual growth. The whole premise is carefully restricting member participation so it does not encourage anyone to embrace a greater depth of commitment and taking on leadership and ministry themselves. The moment you do that, the system marginalizes you, particularly if your ministry and leadership does not embrace Craig’s own sponsored material.
…or your purpose was to simply find fault from the beginning… Lots of different types of people teach LifeGroups… Some use curriculum that’s not from LifeChurch, itself…
What is the point of simply finding fault with other Christians? What is the point?
People are being spiritually renewed. They’re giving their lives to Christ and becoming what Christians should be. Individuals are made whole, marriages are healed and families are becoming people focused on serving and pleasing God, rather that fighting with each other for control and self-fulfillment at the expense of others. What is wrong with that?
LifeChurch isn’t liturgical and Pastor Groeschel doesn’t do lots of deep, deep word studies or book by book, verse by verse expository teaching… Maybe some people would think the absence of those approaches might mean the teaching is shallow…I don’t know. I, personally, see it as a difference in style, more than as a difference in substance. I’ve been to the other type of church and to contemporary variations. Sometimes, people who say they want deeper knowledge, seem to just want to feel superior because they have it…some people with that as their focus simply become arrogant and condescending–while wearing a veil of pseudo-humility. Now, to me, THAT’s sad.
What I do know about LifeChurch is that the majority of people I’ve observed, and with whom I’ve interacted, love God and want to cooperate with him to change their behaviors and become holy.
You probably won’t do it, but I think it would be very sweet of you to reconsider your considered review and apologize (either to Pastor Groeschel or to the rest of us or both) for the things you’ve said. They really weren’t very nice.
Kitty Jordan
My criticism stands, Kitty. Nice is not what prophets do. Oh, wait; do you reject the idea God still calls prophets? Doesn’t matter. My calling and ministry are not subject to your approval, but God’s. So are my criticisms of everything, and you need not take me seriously. If you are sensitive to what I write on my own blog, the problem is between you and God. I can only write what the Lord moves me to write.
That most of the people in America today don’t want spiritual depth is only a symptom, and Life Church is another symptom of the same problem. You will never get a clue what this is about until you see beyond the basic fact most American Christians want religious entertainment, and Craig provides it. That God still blesses says more about God than Life Church. It’s still designed and managed as entertainment. What you fail to grasp is I have an awful lot of the same kind of criticism about most every other popular church, and even stronger criticisms about Western Christianity as a whole. Since I’ve addressed these issues extensively on this blog, I’m not repeating the volumes of information here.
How we feel about these things is of no substance. I went to Life Church; I experienced what it is. I found it unsuitable to my calling from God and explained why. I see no changes, and I’ve already tried communicating to Craig. Do you think he is interested in my comments? No response. I’m nobody to him, and that’s fine. I don’t take myself that seriously. But my criticism stands.
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I totally understand where you are coming from on this.
I recently left a church that is under this same ” formula”. The pastor regurgitates Craig’s sermons as well as Steven Furtick’s, Perry Nobel’s and Andy stanley’s and some others (never disclosing that these were not his own hard prayed for, dutifully studied about sermons). About two years in to my attending there there was a significant change from when I first started. They were growing and needed more room and then went the way of appealing to the masses by letting the very gifted and talented musicians go from leading worship (diligently for 13 years) to hire a music pastor to basically perform rock shows with a mix of modern worship music.
The next changes came as they decided to add on to the church. The focus of the church become more and more about watering the gospel down to “your life is a mess, you are a …( with almost an embarrasment) sinner but if you want to fix your hardships in life accept Jesus as your Savior” and your life with be filled with contentment. Then the Love (insert your city name here and get the t-shirt) projects done under the guise of ministry are performed without sharing the gospel to those they are ministering to. It makes the Love Peeps feel very spiritual and maybe a bit holier in the sense of making the world a better place but the lives of many seem like they are barely growing and are planted in shallow soil.
I once asked about leading a Bible study about Revelations and was told that they had there own subjects that they wanted to cover with their own curriculum. All of their small groups were based on the study of the latest popular book put out by one of the pastor’s mentioned earlier.
Many of the people in this church seemed to live a spiritual life superfiscially but they were still so engrained in what the world has to offer. If ever a mention about concerns of what a book, movie or popular secular musician was doing or saying that reflected negatively against God’s teachings and holiness (like madonna’s halftime show, unorthodox teachings in books like the Shack, Rob Bell, Brian mclaren or even just basic fiction like Twilight series etc.) I was told that I shouldn’t pass judgement on those things because it makes Christians look bad and we are just suppose to show love to others and not make them feel like the things they like are wrong. Several things that concerned me was the lack of discernment among many of them.
If the Word was expositorily taught many would learn the true nature of God and what true holiness means and then would learn discernment and sanctification would grow.
Sad what is happening these days! Good points made in your post. I could see exactly what you were trying to convey thru it. I pray for these people and hope for a change in them. It really makes me grieve for their lack of understanding and the weakness of teaching.
Thanks, Jodie. I pray for them, too, and it’s my mission to say something about it.
I first started to bristle at your characterization of Lifechurch as entertainment, but after further reflection I have decided that is a good description. That being said, I have to wonder if that really is so bad? Why does church have to be boring, painful, or hurtful to be good?
Some of the rest, I have to wonder where you are coming from or how much you thought out your criticisms. For example, you mention uniformed security guards most of whom are law enforcement. If you would have noticed, they were only there when the kids ministry was meeting. I go to a Lifechurch that has adults only services (or at least college) and they do not have the officers there. It is more of a comment on our society that we have people who use kids as a bargaining chip in divorces, family squabbles, or for other unpure purposes. By hiring people whom are sworn to upload the laws of Oklahoma it helps to keep from the situation we have seen in other religious institutions where people choose their job over protecting children.
Your comments in several places about people not being allowed to get deep I totally do not understand. I participate in a Lifegroup (Lifechurch’s version of a bible study or Sunday school) and we get very deep. I am from a family of pastors and have just shy of a philosophy degree from a secular university and can attest that you could not get much deeper. We get deep in the aspect of spending 2 hours one night discussing all the implications of a sentence about Paul and Barnabus going from one town to another, as well as deep in regards to discussions about pandering to the public to make church more appealing.
I think this misunderstanding comes from your other theme that in general Lifechurh is pretty much church-lite. I have been in some meetings with employees and can attest that this is a concern. I would ask you to solve it perhaps. How do you have a church that calls to those who have never been to church but still keeps the interest to those like you who obviously know more and have grown quite a bit in religion? I have seen the different campuses take different approaches. From asking people to leave as you point out to helping them found their own churches to getting jobs at other churches. In my experience, however, when asked to leave it was not done in a rude way but more of a “if you don’t consider this a home, please find a church you do rather that just throw your hands up in disgust of Church in general.”
So, I guess my big question becomes… what spiritual needs are suppressed at Lifechurch? What is it that there is not a niche someplace already? I am honestly interested and if you feel more comfortable answering in private please do.
One man’s depth is another man’s overwrought chasing of shadows. You at least acknowledge the substance of my complaint, and don’t deny what I experienced. Take me seriously and I’ll return the favor.
The single biggest theme of this blog is the dead and destructive nature of Western Civilization. I’m not fighting it, just pointing out how it is fundamentally hostile to Christian faith, to the entire revelation of the Bible. The Bible is distinctly non-Western, and it would surely require all of that philosophy degree you might have, and perhaps more to work with me on that point. It’s the basic question of epistemology, for which there is little room in the comments to pursue. Search my blog for that term and you’ll get more than you care to read. I never bothered to pursue and advanced degree, but I have a pair of BAs.
But give that is the issue, the whole purpose of church is helping people step away from that culture. If the church-lite was the gateway to something deeper, I’d applaud mightily and still be involved. When I attempted to introduce just the most obvious weaknesses of Western worldly culture is when I was shown the door. I never got the chance to explore the issue. I was shown the door because I dared to assert a bit of leadership talent, and didn’t stick to the enforced mandatory shallowness. The moment I revealed I was professionally trained for ministry is when the organizational clamp was applied to my efforts to be involved.
A few of the other Life Groups wanted to explore healing of families for issues not covered in Craig’s books, nor those he authorized for use in the church. There is a very distinct official curriculum, and it’s gently but firmly enforced. This is not a matter of bringing in other materials, but simply exploring the wounds not covered by the approved materials. That Life Group was told to stick to the script, and when they didn’t, bodies were hijacked for other groups and activities. Then they were rather forcefully told they had better use the material or support would be withdrawn, though I understand it wasn’t so bluntly stated. That Life Group folded. Others openly asked the staff for help with similar troubles in their lives, and were simply steered into the most frivolous activities with leaders guaranteed not to discuss those things. Yes, I interviewed these people later, so I know what happened.
It’s not enough things are kinda lightweight, but it’s an enforced frivolity. I saw serious problems I never even got to address because I was told my professional experience was not acceptable in Life Church, at any campus. By no means was I asking for a chance to be on staff; I volunteered to do everything at my own expense. Further, I was fully acquainted with the theological statements and boundaries, and it’s not hard at avoid transgressing them. The staff simply didn’t want me using any of my training and experience because they had a tight lock on all content, and seemed angry when I suggested there was room for digging deeper.
Lol… I love the people at LC! I gels a lot of leadership positions…. What’s Next Team Leader
Outreach Leader, Lifegroup leader, leader of Lifegroup Leaders (community leader), and a mens ministry leader! Bushido! I believe they are a great church. I also believe they are for infant Christians. I have been upset and saddened by people’s belief in LifeChurch and lack of belief in supernatural signs and wonders. Miracle headings, words of knowledge, an pd Holy Spirit are so quenched. To truly follow Christ I had to leave LifeChurch. They are the best grace preaching church I have heard of. But there comes a time when you realize you are saved and there’s not a true discipleship oppurtunity there as of now. They say it’s in Lifegroups, but that isn’t true. Lifegroups are great for accountability, but if you are struggling with the same sins you were last year or two ago then you might try to find another means. Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God. Hebrews 6:1
Please don’t make the mistake of thinking I’m bashing LifeChurch where my wife still serves the kids and I visit monthly and still have the liberty to minister there. Though I have gotten into trouble for praying for people in the lobby, for casting out a demon in a witch after she asked if God could and then threatened me when I said He not only could but will. The fact is they are still my brothers and I love them. I pray they will start flying under His banner and quit flying under LifeChurch banner. Example…. Last Bushido I heard if Jesus was alive today, which He is, he would go to LifeChurch. Wrong, for the most part. He would be in the streets to seek and save tat which is lost. Also heard LifeChurch hundreds of times, Bushido dozens, and Jesus 3 times. This is the sad truth of how the enemy keeps us from growing into the fullness of Christ. If we find our idenity in where we attend church, we will lose our idenity as “sons of God” I write all this as a testimony and pray it unveils your eyes. Not saying leave, but as Jesus says “Go, heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received freely give!” You are created to show His kingdom as a son! Bless you in the name of our amazing King! Jesus
I just left a comment and wanted to follow up a bit….
Ed is a bit rough around the edges, but what he is saying is very true. Kitty, it sounds like you have a wonderful heart and are a sister too:) being saved is just the beginning. The kingdom does not consist in talk, but in power. Most of what LifeChurch does can be accomplished by a Kiwanis club. God does the impossible! Faith craves the impossible, because God receives all the glory. Forgive me if I’m offending anyone, though I do not claim to have reached full maturity either, but I want you to know the truth. And if you are offended then good, you now recognize an area in your life to grow. To be Christlike is to be unoffendable! I’m so wrapped up in His true presence that nothing you say or do or think about me causes me to build a wall to protect myself. He is my protection! I love you, I really do and pray we hold no hard feelings for our beliefs, but learn humility, realizing we are not always right, so we can renew our mind and be more like our Daddy! And not resent each other for our beliefs or lack of and just love each other because we have the same Dad.
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Love one another, as I have loved you <3 😀 From a fellow FOLLOWER
^ Dont be downhearted ^
Peace be with you
I’ve never attended LifeChurch but am tempted to since I’m burned out on the traditional Southern Baptist church and it’s Good O’Boy Network where everyone still acts like they’re in High School.
I would find it awkward to just sit in an auditorium and see the sermon on the video and in no way am I criticizing Craig Groeschel or Lifechurch its just that I’m not accustomed to it.
Also the Worship is very loud with the laser show, strobe lights, overhead camera. It looks like a Foo Fighters concert plus they do use Hillsong worship. Hillsong worship is what most churches use now but they don’t realize that Brian Houston of Hillsong is a money hungry TBN prototype.
Plus I’m thinking that I probably wouldn’t fit in right off of the bat as from reviews, Lifechurch would also feel like High School. That’s the same thing I’m trying to get away from in the Southern Baptist convention.
You have to decide for yourself. I lead worship at home. Nothing I wrote signaled a campaign to shut down Craig’s ministries. It was a review and I’m done with it. I may use his empire as an example to make a point, but I seriously doubt very many people take me seriously on my criticisms.
I went to LC Yukon, last Sunday. I am 66yrs old and have taught Sunday school in three denominations, and attended others. I have introduced many to The Lord. I was able to worship The Lord just fine there at the Yukon campus, and I look forward to next Sunday!
Good for you, Ray. There’s no reason someone can’t do what suits them in this regard, just so long as they know what’s involved.
If a church is large does that mean that are doing the right things? Why do we need bands and entertainment in worship? I have been involved in these churches before they are not God-centered only self-centered.
Your article is full of cynicism and judgements and frankly,,, you’re wrong. You make broad statements based on opinion. Intellectual integrity insists you cite sources which you have none. “According to some” is not a source. Back up your statements otherwise you are nothing more than a slanderer. Friend, that’s sin. You have not presented any thesis supported by anything other than you’re biased opinion. I’ve actually critically researched and studied LifeChurch.tv, their LifeGroups, theology, doctrine and church model. Have you ever heard of ecclesiology? I’ve met their pastor and leadership team. I visited 8 of their 15 campuses incognito and have always been received with kindness and blessing. Do they have a system? Yes! The church in Acts had organization. LifeChurch.tv is helping many people find the One True God in Christ Jesus. What have you personally done to accomplish His mission lately? Do you know His mission? Thank God for men like Craig Groeschel who have been able to bring Jesus to a new generation without minimizing God’s Word. You should be thanking him. Large churches do not necessarily mean they are doing Biblical ecclesiology. However, in the case of LifeChurch.tv, they are doing it right… as in righteous. I am Ed. Looking forward to your feedback and please don’t mention Straw Man.
My statements are my experience, Mr. Snyder. Slander is a sin, but describing my experience is simply be a witness and your comments completely bypass the bulk of my post to cherry pick a tiny element. That’s a standard propaganda approach which makes you a filthy liar and servant of Satan. But there’s more: You ignore everything I said that was good about Life Church and suggest I said the opposite, things about kindness, friendliness, etc. I never said I encountered hostility. In other words, you have gone all around the substance of my comments to snipe at the least important words and phrases. Further, I know for a certainty you didn’t bother to read any of the follow-ups linked in that post. You are a shyster.
However, you slander God when you suggest any part of Western Christianity resembles what happened in the New Testament. That, sir, is the subject of several books I wrote and will not attempt to summarize here. If you cling to any part of the Western European Christian tradition, you are working for Satan to keep souls away from their divine heritage. I would love to see you talk about that, liar.
And if you, Mr. Snyder, or anyone connected to Life Church is considering suing me to shut me up, be warned that you will simply turn me into a virtual martyr. The folks who use the Internet will be very unkind to such a thing regardless of the truth or falsehood in my rant.
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My family and I attend Life Church in Albany, NY, after many years of attending a different church where I felt judged, looked-down upon, never good enough. I learned nothing at this church and it left me empty, confused and fearful. I have learned more in Life Church about God’s word and Christ-centered living in the last year or two, than I had the decade before that. My children don’t even attend the children’s service because they are glued to the sermon, which is always bible-based and Christ-centered. This is the first church I have ever attended that deals with real life issues. It doesn’t sweep sin under the rug and pretends it doesn’t exist within the church, it makes it very real and DEALS with it. Pastor Craig has never once come across as holier-than-thou to me or my family, nor has any of the other pastors I have met. Services are sincere and biblical. I personally know pastoral staff and they would tell you that the complete opposite of “shallowness is enforced” is true. Mr. Hurst, respectfully, I frankly can’t shake the feeling that this article is fueled by a touch of jealousy and/or spite? I hope I’m wrong. For myself and my family, this church has been a life and family changer, and I have experienced none of the things you have described, nor have any of the many other family members or friends that attend this location. When I think of a pastor who is “an actor”, I think of people like Joel Osteen, who comes across as “I’m better than you”, not Craig Groeschel, who is always down to earth, personable, sincere and Christ-centered.
Simone, I cannot help it if your experience is different from mine. Mine is no less valid than yours and my reporting is no less honest. That you did not experience forced shallowness means you did nothing to bump into it. Obviously your sense of personal spiritual needs are different than mine. Meanwhile, I watched over a dozen people who were basically forced to stop discussing their very real needs and their group was hijacked and dissolved when they began digging deeper into emotional problems. The incident began when they asked for a curriculum that would help women with deeper problems than were addressed in Chazown. I watched it happen when I attempted to help a couple of men with issues not covered in the other shallow curricula.
Given my personal experience and training in handling these kinds of serious problems suffered by people on the fringe of most churches, I was hoping I might be free to exercise my gifts and talents, since nothing in my efforts or inclination was contrary to anything the church said or did. In other words, several people were trying to pick up the slack independently, and the church leadership went out of their way to crush such efforts. I also possess a strong background in management and workplace politics; I’ve studied the tactics, so I refuse to accept any suggestion I’m making this up. I know a Delphi attack when I see it; research the Delphi Method for yourself.
I knew before I showed up the first time at LifeChurch that Craig was merely an entertainer. This assessment rises from a long and deep academic study that neither you nor most other readers are willing to examine, so I’ll leave it there. I wasn’t too much troubled by that because I was pretty sure I could get involved without causing trouble. People were hurting and I knew I could help. What I didn’t expect to see were the creepy tactics used by the local church staff. After I published this original post, now quite long ago, I encountered others who posted similar thoughts about LifeChurch on other forums. If you found my post, you can find theirs. Meanwhile, at least one member of the staff did comment somewhere above but never bothered to continue the conversation. I’m quite willing to talk to them, but they won’t talk to me.
Meanwhile, I am doing the work of the Kingdom of God and warning people who are seriously searching their own spiritual calling that you can’t pursue it at LifeChurch. I suppose if you are comfortable there, you aren’t interested in such a calling. You are in good company on that note.
I always welcome honest dialogue but am disappointed that your retort includes “This assessment rises from a long and deep academic study that neither you nor most other readers are willing to examine”, and “I am doing the work of the Kingdom of God and warning people who are seriously searching their own spiritual calling that you can’t pursue it at LifeChurch. I suppose if you are comfortable there, you aren’t interested in such a calling. You are in good company on that note.” This is exactly the “holier-than-thou” attitude, intended or not, that turns people away from following Christ, because they do not feel good enough. And I do not believe that is what Christ would have wanted.
I never claimed that you did not experience what you did, or that your experiences were not valid in your eyes. I merely said that my experiences have been the opposite. It saddens me that your answer now is basically not just implying, but saying that those who disagree with you are intellectually not digging as deep as you are. You do not know where I or others have been, what we have studied, researched, uncovered, discovered, read, or written. Saying that because I attend Life Church equals that I am not interested in searching for my own spiritual calling is simply not true.
Sometimes, the greatest hurdle for growing the body of Christ via the Christian church are…other Christians.
I am hardly the only writer addressing the subject in the book to which I linked, so it’s possible you could have read something like it. However, had you done so, your comments would have been quite different. As for the business of a deeper spiritual commitment to calling, if you check the comments above, you’ll see where one of the staffers at LifeChurch agrees with that assessment: LifeChurch is shallow. Have you ever tried to volunteer? Have you ever asked for an opportunity to lead any kind of activity at all? Church members are encouraged to work their buns off at menial tasks, but actual leadership never happens outside the paid staff. That is a fact, since the staff said so to me and others in my hearing as “Craig’s policy.”
You whine about my wording. Actually, you are simply reading your feelings back into what I wrote, even while accusing me of doing the same. Does it not occur to you that whatever I write here is also for the sake of others? That my replies to you are written from a standpoint of answering you for the sake of everyone else who might trouble themselves to look over this long chain of discussion? And what does that have to do with evangelism? I’m not trying to evangelize you. I didn’t say you had no interest in spiritual calling; I suggested it was not very deep. I stand by that assessment, since every one I knew with a deeper sense of commitment felt compelled to worship elsewhere. In the original post above, I said LifeChurch was okay up until that commitment got serious.
I don’t care where you’ve been or what you know. If you like LifeChurch as it is, your needs are pretty simple when compared to the kind of work to which I’ve been called. I’m not better for that reason, just different. Uniformity is not a virtue, and I am not a nicey-nicey neutered metrosexual. Some of us are called to a different audience. If that smacks of arrogance in your ears, you obviously haven’t gotten the message. This is a debate between professing Christians who are worlds apart on a great many things, and if the best you can do is whine about my writing skills or my rather blunt forms of expression, maybe you should look past that and think about the content. I don’t do nicey-nicey with everyone for the same reason Jesus cracked a whip in the Court of Gentiles: the people there should have known better.
Stop commenting unless you intend to address the core of my complaint. If you don’t understand it, then call me an evil idiot and get it over with. I have time to answer your questions but whining is tiresome.
I began typing answers several times but realized that I do not wish to participate in this kind of rude and unhealthy rhetoric. I will take my pedestrian needs and continue to serve Christ down here with us simpletons. =)
It was rude and unhealthy when you impugned my motives in your first comment. If you don’t like the sight of blood, don’t start with your sword drawn.
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