Depending on how you define the terms of the debate, I might agree with the statement “God does not exist.”
If your entire approach is Aristotelian (included as an element in Enlightenment, Post-Modernism and just about the entire basis of all Western Civilization), then no one can prove God “exists” because He is not confined to this universe. I’ll certainly concede that.
Nor is any of this a matter of such debate. Yelling and screaming about what can be proved or disproved in this realm of existence is pretty silly in the first place if you intend at any point to discuss anything of real importance. Just getting involved in the debate is to cede the whole ground to those who reject Him. I have no intention of debating it.
You know where that leads you? The entire public debate about Global Warming is pure lies. The very existence of this debate is a tribute to corporate funding through foundations. So rarely do we find any real facts about climate itself, you have to go out of your way to dig them up. Pick any controversy and it’s about the same.
Yet, I’m forced to use a highly limited, and wholly unsuitable human language to indicate things in another realm of existence, outside our universe. You cannot in any way describe that realm, nor any part of it. You can only indicate things about it. If your spirit has been awakened, some part of you will understand. If all you have is your intellect, you’ll struggle with the very fundamentals of it. There is nothing to prove, nothing to falsify, not much to be said at all, until we start talking about how it affects our conduct and frame of reference here.
That’s the real conflict. There is no common ground in any sense of the word, except that we are all stuck here trying to exist on this plane together. The fundamental Christian statement is our allegiance is outside this universe. We claim a part of us has been awakened which is dead in most humans, and that is the key to the whole thing. There are ways to measure it, but it’s all in the murky world of behavioral science.
Christians insist we have a compelling drive to act in ways which make no reference to the logic of this realm. That drive comes from that part of us which does not belong here, which belongs to a superior level of existence in another realm. We can’t prove it, and all those who try will fail. Yes, we can pull out or old copies of Josh McDowell’s Evidence That Demands a Verdict but the author himself warns: You can’t prove it sufficient to change your opponents. If they lack that spiritual awareness, there is nothing any man can do by any amount of logic to change their beliefs.
I won’t get the least bit excited if you rant and rave God does not exist, because that simply tells me more about you than anything else.
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So do want to to debate and discuss? If you do, you should read this for a start http://robertnielsen21.wordpress.com/2012/05/04/arguments-against-the-existence-of-god-1-the-problem-of-evil/
No, Robert, you present nothing I haven’t already seen. I almost believe you didn’t read my post, because you are standing smack in the middle of Aristotelian epistemology, when I pointedly reject it as the ground rules.
BTW, your argument is a Straw Man. You deliberately mis-characterize the opposing argument. You presume God must operate by your motivations, and refuse to understand His motivations as clearly offered in the Bible. I call intellectual dishonesty.
What are you talking about? How is it dishonest? All I did was describe the God of the Bible, the God I was raised to believe in. I was always told he loved everyone, could do anything and knew everything. If I got that wrong please show me where.
(Sorry but I haven’t a clue what Aristotelian epistemology is)
I have a follow up article if the first one wasn’t good enough http://robertnielsen21.wordpress.com/2012/05/06/argument-against-gods-existence-2-if-god-wanted-us-to-believe/
I still don’t know if you actually want to discuss ideas. Your title implies you do, but then you declare “I have no intention of debating it.” You then claim that if your “spirit has been awakened” you will understand. This is basically the same as saying if you believe you will believe or if I was to say I’m an atheist because I’m an atheist.
If you read the post, third paragraph, last sentence: “I have no intention of debating it.” The most annoying thing I put up with here on this blog is people who don’t actually read what I write, and then want to engage me in conversation or debate. If you wish to argue against the God you were taught, that’s fine. State this clearly as your ground, because I assure you the God you describe is nothing like the God I find in the Bible. It’s dishonest to assume everyone has to agree with the all the background assumptions you hold, as if they were universal.
God defines love differently than you, and power does not automatically translate to action as you might expect. There are huge moral questions you don’t address, just assume without stating. Your epistemology is frankly hostile to the biblical message. Epistemology is the fundamental question of knowing such that we can act on what we claim to know. It is the first question of philosophy. If you didn’t already know this, I believe your education is missing huge chunks. You are using Aristotelian logic and don’t know what that means? Are you not aware there were thousands of years of human history well before Aristotle, when very wise and intelligent people held a different epistemology?
Robert, as kindly as I know how to tell you: You aren’t ready to take me on. I’ve taught this stuff professionally, and I don’t have the space here for educating you across the vast difference between a carefully selected few courses in what is called “philosophy” versus a very wide exposure to human thought outside Western Civilization. In case you didn’t know it, the Bible is an Eastern document, not a Western treatise. You cannot approach it from a Western viewpoint, because you’ll be wrong in the first sentence you attempt to parse. That’s not even touching the issue of working from a third-hand English translation for a vastly different Hebrew culture.
The title of my post was an invitation to read and understand something I have to say. On my blog, no single post stands entirely by itself, but each is linked to the several years of output which came before it. I have a message; if you aren’t interested in my message, why did you bother commenting? I’m not telling you “get lost,” but asking you to give a little thought.
How does your head fit through the door? I’ve never seen such arrogance. Four paragraphs about how great and smart you are and how no one else can possibly match your intellect. Apparently my education is missing huge chunks because I haven’t studied philosophy. Get over yourself
I tried, Robert. Now go away.
Footnote: If you’ve read down this far, dear visitor, let me add one more item. If someone wanders into my office without having a clue about me or even the conversation at hand, but insists on jumping in as an equal participant, it’s not going to work well. When I visit other blogs, I never comment without surveying previous posts on that blog. It’s all about getting to know people. Vox Day has one thing right: Most atheists we encounter on the Net tend to act like Aspergers. We expect Net newbies to need a little coaching on netiquette, but some people are totally lacking in social graces. For some reason, the latter is very common among self-avowed atheists. There are some really nice people out there under every banner you can imagine, but pushy atheists are worse than heavy-duty fundamentalist evangelists.
Thanks Ed for sharing your thoughts and opinions, both of the mundane and that which you relay from the other realm. When the internet ends, please leave notes somehow as you go. Someone will be thankful you did. Read this post, followed by all your previous and then May 22 back to this again. Enjoyed by my heart, mind, and soul and helped me turn more fully toward God. I’ll pray your ride finds a new volunteer fruiting plant soon when you most need it. Love -Matthew