I refuse to dispute with Scripture. You can bet I’ll dispute over Scripture. That is, I will debate with you what it actually says, but I’ll never hide or confuse the issue intentionally. I can point to a wealth of consistent scholarship about Hebrew intellectual assumptions and how they differ from what we have around us today.
In Hebrew literature, context is everything. For example, in the Ancient Near East (ANE), you would never stick your nose into something without good intel. That means you have your people on the ground at the scene, or close enough to observe. You would further insist on having things evaluated by people you trust, people who have taken the time to know what you value and how their mission fits into your broader agenda. It was all intensely personal and labor intensive. Whereas we make a demigod of objectivity, they would have sneered at the mere possibility of being objective about things in this world. God could remake reality on-the-fly, so don’t waste your time.
God made all things. There are no useful details on that because it’s beyond our comprehension. That’s partly because we are fallen. Again, the details are sketchy how that came to be, but that’s not important. What matters is the painful truth that we don’t operate on His level; we are stuck inside a very flawed and constrained false reality. Indeed, God said He would not enter this sphere of existence because simply touching it would destroy it, in the sense that His holiness would dissolve the whole thing as we know it. He has some peculiar and unknowable reason for keeping things as they are for now. So He’s personally involved through proxy agents, many of which are not human.
Those agents are described in Scripture as angels, beings who can manifest in a more-or-less human form when necessary. However, they are hardly human. Perhaps in more modern terms, they are moral abstractions that express God’s divine will. The whole point of Hebrew literature as revelation is to offer a working model of reality. The point of revelation is to bring attention back to Himself, because nothing will do more for us than to reach out to Him. What we have now is not what God had mind, not what He wanted for us. Whatever it was that we could have had, and could some day recover, requires first that we make Him Lord.
So it stands to reason the angels would not suffer our limitations, but understand them fully. For them to enter our realm of existence means entering a system of constraint not native to them. They don’t have to be visible nor have any particular form at all, but have been known to appear in a human form. Their essence is to express God’s moral intent within the context of our fallen state. They represent a redemptive presence, a personal expression of His compassion on our foul estate.
What we see in Scripture narratives about the appearance of angels is more about meeting the people where they were than about expressing any kind of absolute truth. Don’t read that sort of thinking back into Scripture, because it’s foreign to the mindset of the writers. There is no such thing as objective reality and no body of objective truth extant separately from God’s Person. What you see around you is deception itself, in a sense. This is the damaged and broken remains of something real, a collection of shadows. The Hebrew worldview is naturally closer to reality, being the product of divine revelation itself, but not obligatory upon us in every detail. Rather, it is obligatory to become familiar with that worldview if you plan to understand Scripture.
Our minds are designed to handle multiple frames of reference. From that basis you can shape your own approach to making God Lord of your life. You can create your own system, but don’t you ever pretend your system is somehow binding on others. Just because it makes sense to you doesn’t mean it should make sense to someone else. For all our vast attempts to formulate a standard system of logic, we cannot possibly all see things just alike. There is sure to be some overlap, but you can’t possibly rise to anything more than a functional grasp for your own use. It’s not that we can’t rise to logic, but neither we nor the logic is capable of discovering ultimate truth. It as to be revealed, and revelation is inherently personal. It’s moral, not factual.
You aren’t required to think of angels as literal truth. Seeing actual agents from Heaven is rather what the Hebrew people would expect; it wouldn’t challenge their ability to obey. God is not interested in useless distractions. He addresses you where you are in hopes you’ll allow yourself to be dragged out of that mess into something better. If it works for you to see it more as a matter of God’s character manifesting itself in the natural world instead of angelic entities pushing things around, fine — go for it. Take upon yourself the accountability to invest yourself in serving God and working out some internal system of organization so you can implement that divine call.
Meanwhile, don’t ever sneer at anyone else’s system. They may well be far closer to God’s intent for them than you are to His intent for you.
In terms of how things work, demons are those angelic beings under the dominion of Satan. In other places I describe how Satan is our enemy, but not God’s. Rather, Satan is God’s divine jailer and lictor. Every great ruler of the ANE had a very high-ranking official who kept the jail, typically a debtor’s prison of sorts. It isn’t precisely buying your way out of hell, but of satisfying the debt owed on your head.
The whole thing was described in terms or ANE feudalism. Your Lord is involved in some kind of domain-building. It was seldom so crass as pure monetary profit. He valued people more than property. People can be moved as opportunity provides, but real estate was fixed to the ground. A nomadic existence was the essence of their assumptions about life. Besides, without talented servants to populate your holdings, land meant nothing. If you transgress your Lord’s plans for building His empire, you would cost him something; it would be a loss. You would incur a sort of debt. The jailer would assume the ownership of that debt and you would serve him until that debt was repaid. He wasn’t required to be nice about it, so the longer you stayed in his service, the more likely you were to die before your time.
So abstract this image and understand that humanity is born into Satan’s jail, born under a transgressor’s debt. There is all kinds of ways to resolve that debt, and the provisions are quite generous, but you have to accept the terms. The debt is regarded as incurred by your disloyalty. Redemption from that debt starts with a resolve, a commitment of personal loyalty to serve the Lord in building His domain. Otherwise, all you do is enrich the jailer, Satan.
But Satan can’t do anything without God’s permission. Moreover, in terms of influence in this world, Satan’s power is outnumbered two-to-one, as it were. That is, the Bible says that there are two angels for every demon. I’ll leave it to the reader to consider what that says about how goofy humanity is about staying with Satan when the exit from his service is so very easy.
On the other hand, the entire thrust of Western Civilization is to counter God’s truth. It was bad enough in ancient times with their odd mixture of pagan and heathen cultures. But that was all a rather common ground compared to the vast distance we have to travel these days. Departing Satan’s clutches has never been harder in terms of human awareness. It’s rather like having to install an entirely different operating system on a computer. The hardware is just fine either way, but the outcome is radically different in terms of what you can do with it. It’s not enough to simply remove the malware and change the settings; you have to start from scratch with an entirely different orientation.
When discussing angels and demons, we start with a huge mass of painfully sick and perverted lies. All the crap in movies and ghost stories is just that — crap. The whole thing is the result of pagan mythology and pointedly contrary to Scripture. Nothing in this universe twitches without God’s permission. Whatever is at work on our level of existence is not something we need to fear. It can’t drag us screaming off into Hell. By default, that’s where we are all headed in the first place. In general terms, the torment of human suffering and sorrow is all one thing; only our subjective sense of awareness makes any difference. The fallen plane of existence is all shadows and lies in the first place.
Nothing requires you to think and operate in terms of angels and demons literally present around you. What is required is that you understand the moral implications of the imagery in the context of Hebrew Scripture, and apply that moral discernment to your own existence.
Thanks for this one Ed.
This is raising more questions for me, though. I’ve put them (and the context behind them) in a blog post today, could you come and have a look?
“God made all things…
we are stuck inside a very flawed and constrained false reality”.
–Ed
Well, either God knew the outcome of His creation, or He did not.
Either He could control it, or He could not. Yes?
That means He 1) Knew and could control the outcome of His creation, 2) Knew and could not control the outcome, 3) Did not know the outcome but could control it, or 4) did not know it and could not control it.
A rational person would conclude from this (If there is a Creator—and we assume that there is) that #2 and #4 can’t be true because that would preclude the existence of a God (by definition). Reason also tells us that #3 also would define God as NOT omniscient, even if benevolent and all-powerful.. but, clearly NOT comporting with the Biblical definition of God as being all-knowing, which, surely you subscribe to.
Which leaves us with option #1..He knows AND controls all details of His creation.
This is what I subscribe to.
If you agree, then you believe God created a “very flawed (‘crooked, twisted’)…false reality”. He made the sick Matrix we all live in.
And if you don’t agree, them you deny the existence of a Creator, based on reasons 2 through 4 above. And you contradict what you stated above.
Hard to say what you really preach, Ed. Care to elaborate?
Pinko, I see you subscribe to Aristotelian logic as binding on God. That’s the wrong starting place; you cannot apply human reason to God and His choices, nor the outcomes. What God knew when He decided to create is simply too far above our ken. You assume too much. What He could/couldn’t or simply would/wouldn’t control is far beyond your speculation. We humans are not able to step back into the process of Creation and Fall to evaluate what God is or has done. Revelation characterizes our current situation and makes no attempt to explain how we got here. The language is parable and symbol, and meant to convey the enormity of our problem. When you stop setting up false dichotomies and trying to make God jump through your hoops, you might be in a good position to hear and obey Our Creator.
So maybe God knows, maybe he doesn’t know. Maybe He’s in control, maybe He’s not. Who can say? Is that your position?
And WHO is the Creator, exactly? What is His name?
(I do not subscribe to any brand of logic as “binding on God”. That was a false presumption. I was applying logic to your statements only. Whether or not Ed Hurst is bound by logic still remains under examination.)
Pinko, I go through this every month or so. I’m not going to rewrite my books here for you, nor restate the entire context of this blog. You were applying your logic to my statements and it’s still the wrong logic because it’s the wrong epistemology. If you haven’t taken courses in comparative civilizations, and all you know of logic is what arises from the history and literature of Western Civilization, you won’t have a clue where I am coming from. Aristotelian logic, to which you clearly cling, is not some universal default. The foundation of this blog is drawing people back into the intellectual traditions of the Bible specifically, and the Ancient Near East generally. That’s the context of revelation. The God of the Bible typically responds to an awful lot of titles and names in English, so pick one. I’ll be glad to answer questions not directly addressed in previous writings here, but there will be no debate — debate is a Western obsession generally absent from biblical tradition.
Addenda: It doesn’t matter what God knows about His creation or the future; He controls everything He wants to control. He knows all about my world and all about me. I am accountable to Him in terms of His revelation.
Well then I must conclude you are a very poor teacher. Not only have you not answered questions directly relevant to your blog post, you offer pseudo-philisophical nonsense as a thinly veiled deflection (which comes across as you just don’t know). You must realize by now that it’s really hard to read you, Ed, because so much of what you say sounds like gibberish. I think you do it deliberately.
You say you’d be “glad to answer questions”…but, not if you’ve (allegedly) already spoken about them. Translation: ‘read everything I’ve ever written first, then I will allow you the inner sanctum of my teaching’. Reality check: most people on the earth now and far into the future will never have the time (nor the desire) to plow through all of that. It’s arrogant to make such a silly and pointless demand in any case. And while it’s fine to disallow some things from debate (we’ve all closed our minds upon certain beliefs), to say that nothing is open to debate with you is pompous and childish. You are not a prophet, Ed. You do not speak directly for the Lord. Your teachings are not Gospel. They are merely your beliefs. If you cannot defend what you believe, then your listeners will (rightly) conclude that you don’t know what you are talking about.
Per your addenda, it most certainly DOES matter what the Creator knows about his creation, because that directly illuminates His character; the very essence of what sort of God He is (He has a name, by the way). You postulate that ‘God may in fact be ignorant and powerless’, but that’s ok because you’re only accountable “in terms of His revelation”. Well, that was my initial query, Ed…WHAT has God revealed about WHO He is—specifically as to whether or not He is the One True God; the Creator of all that is, what His capabilities are, and what He has planned for His creation (and whether or not He has the power to carry it out). Hint: all of that has BEEN revealed in His Word. You must have missed it.
Actually, I was just asking you what you believed. I think you’ve inadvertently made that clear. Perhaps you are just an odd person with odd beliefs, or maybe you are indeed a false prophet. That’s really all I was trying to understand. All your mystical meanderings aside, I just want a straight answer from you: Do you believe what the Bible teaches about God? Because I’m quite sure I’m not the first person to notice that what you’re (struggling) to teach here just does not comport with what is plainly written. Correct me if I’m wrong, of course. I’m all ears.
Pinko, I have peace with God. Some folks who like my writing profess a peace with Him, too, and we commune on that basis. I believe what the Bible teaches, but not as read through your Aristotelian lenses. If the Spirit of God does not witness to you the usefulness of my work, then it’s not for you. As Jesus said to Nicodemas, if you aren’t spiritually awakened, you can’t handle spiritual things. The Spirit Realm is above the human intellect, so it requires a spiritual connection, and human reason is not able to grasp it. Faith is above reason, and often entirely unreasonable in that sense. God is not subject to your tests of reason, so I am under no obligation to make my beliefs meet your test of reason.
I don’t expect you to agree; I don’t expect you to understand unless God grants it to you. You are hardly alone in your opinion of me, and it worries me not in the least. Nothing you’ve said is new to me. Call me crazy and stop wasting your time. Tell all the people you know that I’m crazy or whatever other words you like. Maybe someday the Lord will break through your Pharisee’s heart, because you sound just like them.
Well enough, then.
But if I’m “Aristotelian”, you’re miles away from proving it. Mere assertion is not proof, Ed. For the record, I know precious little about Aristotle’s philosophy, and care even less about it or him. And for all your knowledge (which is rather much, I’m sure), you have a lifetime more information in your head about him than you ever will of me. By comparison then, I’m a complete stranger to you; my thoughts and understanding are an utter mystery to you and always will be. Therefore you bear false witness of me.
I’d bet I understand the Bible as a “spiritual” Word more completely than you do, in fact, but my “test of reason” is actually whether or not YOU believe the scriptures. Simple as that. You refused my test. No problem; I understand.
I just needed to know for sure that you do, indeed, contradict the Scriptures. But I wanted to give you the chance to deny it first. I take no pleasure in accusation. I’m sad to see I was correct.
I don’t think you’re crazy, Ed, just misguided, and lost in the Matrix. Like all the other self-professed “prophets” of God since Christ.
Hmm. That last sentence is ambiguous. It should be understood to mean “prophets” of God *after* Christ. I do declare that Christ is God. Though, as Jesus himself said, even as his “father is greater than me”, he shares the Divinity of his Father by virtue of the relationship. As we all will one day (Psalm 82:6/ John 10:34).
And I say that you are miles away from understanding me. I don’t have to prove you are Aristotelian; you have done it by the way you state your demands and in every line of your response. It’s how you think, absorbed at the fundamental level of your assumptions about knowledge and valid expressions of it. You bring a vast ocean of assumptions with you and are disappointed that I don’t share them. Your words are the fruit that identifies the tree. I don’t take Scripture as literally as you seem to because the Hebrew writers themselves did not. Have you bought into the myth of “propositional truth”? If it’s propositional it can’t be truth. Ultimate truth is beyond words; the language of the Bible is indicative, not descriptive. You characterize God in terms of how you experience Him. His revelation is entirely personal in nature. If you don’t encounter Him directly, your knowledge means nothing.
Yes, Christ is God in the flesh. He was born sinless and died as the final ultimate sacrifice for all human sin. He paid the price to set us free from the Fall; He is the Flaming Sword through which we must pass to return to Eden. All of which is symbolic language because it addresses things which cannot be described directly, but indicated as in the language of parables. That fancy word “epistemology” means something. It’s referenced in the other pages of this blog, tabs across the top that discuss some of my beliefs to save people time. If you were born and raised in any English-speaking culture, you are Aristotelian at birth, and have to leave it by a conscious choice. You can’t follow Jesus very far otherwise.
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